Politically-incorrect thoughts
- It strikes me as interesting that no one (to my knowledge) has commented on the fact that the outstanding Muslim individual who risked his life defending Jews under attack on a New York City subway train was Bangladeshi. Sorry, but I can't help wondering whether a West Asian (Middle-Eastern) or North African Muslim would have done such a thing.
- Much as I enjoy reading the witty writing of Ms. Bad for Shidduchim, I can't help thinking that any female living in a neighborhood in which the mere act of talking to a male can ruin one's reputation should pack her bags and leave. Would someone who knows this young lady please unpack an old Monopoly set and hand her a "Get Out of Jail" card?
- I'm still bothered by something I read on the Internet a while back concerning an Orthodox Bat Mitzvah celebration in a right-wing community. It took several days for it to "register" what it meant that the celebration took place in the home of the Bat Mitzvah girl during Seuda Shlishit. To the best of my admittedly-limited knowledge, the Sabbath's Seuda Shlishit ("Third Meal") is generally eaten by the men of a traditional community in between the Mincha (Afternoon) and Ma'ariv/Arvit (Evening) services. Which means that the men would all be in synagogue for Seuda Shlishit. Which means that, for every single Bat Mitzvah celebration in that particular community, no father, brother, uncle, or male cousin would ever be present! I can't help wondering just how much a female's learning is valued in a community in which even a Bat Mitzvah girl's own father can't be present to hear her deliver her d'var Torah (Torah/Bible discussion).
posted by Shira Salamone at 1:40 PM
15 Comments:
In this community, even doing the Women's Shalos Shutis is a stretch. Most would prefer to do away with it altogether. And believe me, they don't want the men around for this.
Before you get too hot under the collar about this, might I add that the rabbinic authorities are moving quickly to do the same for Bar Mitzvahs. When I last spoke to the Rabbi, he was waxing nostalgic about the good ole' days when a bar mitzvah was an aliyah and a shot of shnopps.
I don't necessarily disagree with him. With people taking out 3rd mortgages to keep up with the Schwartz's bar mitzvah, a community with many infrastructural needs should not be wasting money on these types of events.
I think he also wants to differentiate this from what goes on in the non-Orthodox community, where the bar/bat mitzvah often signals the END of the childs' participation in communal Jewish life, rather than what it should be, the beginning.
*Who* doesn't want the men around for this? If the women are worried about singing in the presence of men (because of the kol isha restriction), why not have the young lady deliver her d'var Torah during a kiddush after Shacharit (Morning Service), then have a gals-only Seuda Shlishit, where the girls and women can sing z'mirot (Sabbath table songs) to their hearts' content, in the Bat Mitzvah girl's home later the same day? Her father, brothers, uncles, etc. would get to hear her discussion, the women would get to sing freely, and everyone would be happy. (Well, okay, in theory.)
If, on the other hand, the real issue is that females aren't supposed to talk Torah in the presence of males (heaven forbid!), then you've proven my point, which is that, in some communities, women's learning is tolerated only if it remains "in the closet," hidden from the guys.
I'm all in favor of a Bar Mitzvah celebration being nothing but an aliyah and, well, maybe a small kiddush with at least a little cake for those who don't drink. But this will only work if the *entire community* accepts it! Our son still hasn't forgiven us for making the "plainest" Bar Mitzvah celebration of all his friends (haftarah, d'var Torah, kiddush in the shul, period.) He wasn't interested in the fact that that was the kind of Bar/Bat Mitzvah celebration that his parents had had.
I'm on the Conservative side with a female rabbi, so I am all in favor of being around women more learned than I. I fail to see what her gender has to do with G-d's word.
I agree that Bar Mitzvahs can be way out of whack. I'm assured that Keeping Up With the Steins isn't that far away from reality in some quarters and I've seen some Catholic confirmation celebrations cost second mortgages. I don't have a problem with people spending their money as they see fit, but the party should be held as a secular event and the Bar Mitzvahs religious particulars the way you did for your son.
Just like psychotoddler said, it can be the end of their participation and I've seen that in the Catholic world too after confirmation. Suddenly, this G-d person isn't important and besides, they never felt a connection anyhow so off to the world where without G-d they steadily head towards spiritual drifting till they come back to needing G-d and don't see any clear choice of how to join with others to worship.
As far as the Muslim man's ethnicity, I know a lot of Muslims of other places who'd have done the same. There are many devout Muslims who are devout in the truest sense and would see fellow believers in G-d being victimized and step in. Nice to see that gallantry is not dead.
Finally, not sure if a Get Out of Jail Free card would help. Do they make mental versions to unjail thoughts?
Bat Mitzvah issues, Bar Mitzvah zoo...
The problem is that whatever becomes standard becomes expected. There is a general view in traditional Judaism of playing to the middle. The truly exceptional individual is held out in some way (greatest of generation, etc.), but there is an emphasis on making certain that you don't push people away from their comfort zone.
You may have a woman who is, at 12, incredibly learned and a potential scholar, and I appreciate Shira's desire to recognize this. But the reality is that nobody at 12/13 is that knowledgeable, so the question becomes one of expectations.
If you push a Bat Mitzvah into being a female Bar Mitzvah, as is the case in the non-Frum world, you've forced women to take on a public role. While some women may excel at this, most would not, and this would force all women to do it (because parental pressure would quickly make it expected).
As far as scaling back the Bar Mitzvah, no doubt the modern Orthodox world is terrified of the trend of the wealthy members of the community doing the BIG Kiddush at Shul and then the party that night that rivals the non-Orthodox events. Forget just the cost of the party, it forces everyone to up what they are spending, which when Day School tuition is rising at a few points over inflation each year, is a real problem.
The Rabbanim are starting to acknowledge the economic realities of their policies of the last 50-60 years, and we're starting to see some push back against the excess.
Suitepotato, the sadly-common perception in the non-Orthodox world that the Bar/Bat Mitzvah celebration is the *end* of one's participation in synagogue life rather than the official beginning is pretty upsetting to those of us who take our Judaism seriously.
"I know a lot of Muslims of other places who'd have done the same." Perhaps I'm just becoming too much of a cynic.
"Finally, not sure if a Get Out of Jail Free card would help. Do they make mental versions to unjail thoughts?" I guess part of the issue is that people raised to think that the shidduch system is the only proper way to marry simply don't perceive of themselves as being imprisoned by their community's demands, which are certainly far beyond what halachah/Jewish religious law requires. Noam, in his comment to my Dancer gets stomped on by Tzniut Squad/Modest patrol post, said "The gemara at the end of Ta'anit(both the last mishna and the last pages of the gemara) discuss the women of Israel going out to dance in the fields on Yom Kippur and the 15th of Av. The single men not only watch, but watch for the purposes of finding a wife." Funny, how any indication that our honored observant ancestors were sometimes more lenient in their interpretations of Jewish law than are some current-day observant Jews so often gets ignored. Nowadays, in some Orthodox circles, males and females aren't even allowed to sit at the same table at a wedding. And the people in these communities think that this radical separation of males and females under almost all circumstances is perfectly normal. Personally, I think it's sad.
". . . the reality is that nobody at 12/13 is that knowledgeable. . ."
That being the case, why do you automatically assume that a 13-year old boy is knowledgeable and a 12-year-old girl is not?
"If you push a Bat Mitzvah into being a female Bar Mitzvah, as is the case in the non-Frum world, you've forced women to take on a public role. While some women may excel at this, most would not, and this would force all women to do it (because parental pressure would quickly make it expected)."
Similar question: Why is it perfectly acceptable to force a male to take on a public role, but unacceptable to force a female to do so? Do all *men* excel at this? You're falling back on the traditional assumption that public roles are for men and private roles are for women. As an egalitarian Conservative Jew, I respectfully disagree with your fundamental premise.
Ironically enough, the rules of the Orthodox approach actually make it more difficult for a girl to acknowledge becoming a Bat Mitzvah than for a boy to acknowledge becoming a Bar Mitzvah. All a boy has to do is to have an aliyah. A girl, being forbidden to have an aliyah, would, of necessity, have to show her change in status through a bit more than the recitation of two brachot (the ones before and after an aliyah). The simplest thing I can think of is for a girl to stand up before the congregation at a kiddush in the synagogue and recite a psalm. To equalize matters both between the boys (all of whom would say exactly the same brachot) and the girls and among the girls, every Bat Mitzvah girl in an entire community would have to recite the same psalm.
"The Rabbanim are starting to acknowledge the economic realities . . ." I certainly hope so. A re-focusing of economic priorities would be a welcome step in both the Orthodox and non-Orthodox communities.
"To equalize matters . . . , every Bat Mitzvah girl in an entire community would have to recite the same psalm."
And the winner is:
Shir ha-maalot b'shuv haShem et shivat Tzion hayinu k'cholmim. . . ., Psalm 126, the psalm that introduces Birkat haMazon/Grace After Meals on Sabbaths and Festivals. Since, to the best of my knowledge, women are obligated to recite Birkat haMazon, and since, to the best of my knowledge, a girl would assume that obligation upon become a Bat Mitzvah, this would be her statement of newly-acquired obligation.
That being the case, why do you automatically assume that a 13-year old boy is knowledgeable and a 12-year-old girl is not?
I don't, they are both equally ignorant. However, by defining obligations of men at age 13 to make the Brachot for an aliyah, we have all boys at age 13 knowledgeable enough to take on that role.
Because our people classically decided that men need to assume public roles. Publicly reading Torah, leading Mussaf, and any of the other tasks handed to a Bar Mitzvah boy based upon his level of learning is something that the Jewish people decided that all males are supposed to do, so we force them to by Bar Mitzvah.
The flip side, when paying a Shiva call, in the Frum world,just about any of the men are capable of leading the minyan (us uneducated BTs excluded). In the conservative world, it's rare that anyone but the Rabbi or Canter has the knowledge to do so, except the occasional member that grew up Orthodox and therefore knows how.
"The gemara at the end of Ta'anit(both the last mishna and the last pages of the gemara) discuss the women of Israel going out to dance in the fields on Yom Kippur and the 15th of Av. The single men not only watch, but watch for the purposes of finding a wife."
There is a LOT of push-back against the excesses of the Charedi world and it's efforts to push it's bizarre view of gender relations on the rest of the Orthodox world. I say bizarre because not only do the Charedi have no basis in Jewish law or tradition for their ever increasing strictures here, but the argument is that the Gedolim of this era are identifying a problem that wasn't a problem in previous eras, because we are so much spiritually lower than them.
I leave as an exercize to the reader just what is going on in Charedi land that they constantly need new restrictions because they are spiritually lower each generation, it makes you wonder why they aren't obtaining any spiritual growth with all their new rules.
BTW I was at a meeting a few weeks ago at my shul. It is a new program designed to scale back the cost of weddings.
For us here in Milwaukee, this is a unique opportunity, because right now a significant portion of in-town weddings are being moved to Chicago (90 miles away) because it's cost prohibitive to do one here. Once you import all the necessary resources, and rent the big hall, it's actually cheaper to do the wedding out of town.
The program our shul is spearheading would cut the cost of the wedding down to 13 or 15 grand, still alot, but far short of the 25-50 K that NY weddings are going for.
The program involves utilizing a lot of common resources, limiting the number of people at the meal, the cost of the meal, and utilizing a small number of nice but less expensive facitilies who would benefit by an increase in our business. And a cheaper band.
The plan is for it to be used universally, so that no one will feel inadequate somehow by doing a cheaper wedding. It's a way to level the playing field, but at a much more reasonable scale.
So far, the first meeting was packed by people our age or a little older, many of us terrified of what the cost of marrying off our 6 or more kids will cost.
It seems to be going over well, as most people don't seem to mind the idea of not selling their houses for a wedding, but there were a few people who said things like, "well, what if I WANT to have 800 people at a meal..."
Credit Card Al/Alex in Miami, pick one name, please!
I can understand the necessity of ensuring that men are learned enough to fulfill their required roles, but there's a downside to keeping women's learning largely out of the public eye. The flip side of women's learning being hidden is that, in some circles, women who have the chutzpah/nerve to act, in public, as intelligent as they really are sometimes complain that their intelligence scares off potential husbands. One commenter on another blog once said that, the more interesting the conversation on a date became, the less likely it was that the man would ask for another date. Not to put too fine a point on it, but if the most intelligent women in the right-wing Orthodox community are also the least likely to get married, the intelligence of future generations is bound to suffer. I am personally acquainted with a brilliant young woman from the Chareidi community who's in her mid-twenties and still unmarried, which makes her a relatively old single in her married-and-a-mom-of-two-at-22 community, and I think that, aside from it being a sad thing for her personally, it would be a great loss to the Jewish community, on a strictly genetic basis, if she never had an opportunity to have children.
"I leave as an exercize to the reader just what is going on in Charedi land that they constantly need new restrictions because they are spiritually lower each generation, it makes you wonder why they aren't obtaining any spiritual growth with all their new rules." Good question. Exactly what do they think they're accomplishing by making their own lives more and more difficult?
Mark/PT, you certainly put your money where your mouth is: I assume that the proposed wedding restrictions will limit your income from playing wedding gigs with either of your bands. I hope that the program will benefit your family in the long run by enabling your to marry off your kids without having to sell the house.
The flip side of women's learning being hidden is that, in some circles, women who have the chutzpah/nerve to act, in public, as intelligent as they really are sometimes complain that their intelligence scares off potential husbands. One commenter on another blog once said that, the more interesting the conversation on a date became, the less likely it was that the man would ask for another date. Not to put too fine a point on it, but if the most intelligent women in the right-wing Orthodox community are also the least likely to get married, the intelligence of future generations is bound to suffer.
Sorry, think that I have the name thing resolved. I use blogger professionally now and got a mess of the names.
The Charedi community doesn't value intelligence. They may say that they do, but the economics of their community suggest otherwise. With the exception of defining a Gedol for a generation, intelligence appears to play ZERO role in the economic world of Charedim.
I knew plenty of women in college, when dating guys that were in hot fields, or the professional tracks, that would make comments, I hope in jest, about earning potential. The reality is, money plays a huge role in life, and people consider it when dating with an eye towards marriage.
That said, the secular Jewish world values education and "earning" potential... secular Jewish moms want their daughters to marry Doctors. The modern Orthodox world pretends to value education, but doesn't really, there is a lot of emphasis on family money. But on the Charedi side, there is just about no consideration for anything in guys other than family money (with some pretend interest in Torah learning), and the women are almost entirely judged on dress size (with bonus points for having money).
That's the reality of the Charedi Shidduch world. If someone wants a "good" match, they need to emphasize the features valued in that "market," which is true of any market (sports cars emphasize performance, minivans safety).
To a smart girl that isn't a size zero and lacks a wealthy parent? She's a bottom feeder in the Charedi Shidduch world. That seems bad "genetically" because YOU value intelligence... The Charedi world does not, they place almost no value on it. So her choices are take a desperation match, because she lacks anything of value in that world, or find another dating scene where she will be valued.
In the modern Orthodox world, intelligence is more highly valued. In the non-Frum Jewish world, intelligence is highly valued.
Unfortunately for your friend, her ability to find a good spouse is inversely proportional to how close to her religious ideals she looks for in a spouse. Hitting the more secular Jewish dating scene, and finding someone from a Traditional background that would agree to a religious environment is her best bet to get a "good spouse" but won't give her the religious values she wants.
My friend is perfectly acceptable, size-wise, but, working as she does for a non-profit, she could never possibly hope to earn enough money to support herself, a husband in kollel, and a bunch of kids. So I suppose it's reasonable to assume that, in her case, money--or the relative lack thereof--probably accounts for her single status. Thanks for enlightening me--however upsetting I find your theory, it makes sense, sadly.
How many kids really enjoy "their" Bat/Bar Mitzvah celebrations? No matter where/what, it's more for the parents, nu?
Batya, I think you have a point. Technically speaking, a Bar or Bat Mitzvah celebration is supposed to be a public manifestation of a child having reached the age at which he or her becomes obligated to observe the commandments and his or her parents are relieved of responsibility for that child's sins. In practice, however, it's become more of an opportunity for the parents to "show off" their kid and/or fulfill their social obligations There's something to be said for a Bar Mitzvah or Bat Mitzah "acknowledgment" at which a boy just has an aliyah or a girl just reads a psalm, as opposed to a Bar or Bat Mitzvah "celebration," which has become practically an industry in the U.S.
Shlock Rock nailed it with their Bar/Bat Mitzvah "protest" parody song, "Called Michal" (look it up at shlockrock.com):
. . .
"No limo, no limo, hot dogs in a blanket,
Don't throw away, give it to the poor
Nix the disc jockey disc jockey, don't want you to waste any money.
You know I find this stuff confusing--I want more."
That song (which appears on both "Bring Back that Shabbos Feeling" and "Greatest Hits 1991-1996") is worth the price of a CD all by itself.
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